Question on wearing of chainmail

[the_power]

Wow, that's lovely. I'd seen the one in dodgy looking plate before, but without context.

I wonder is it possible to get access to some low resolution images. Do we have any TCD history types on here ? I'll see what my limited contacts can dredge up..

John

[kevin714]

I don't see how they can say there is nothing distinctly irish about what is depicted in the painting! Maybe they are refering to the "art" or "painting style". The reason I say this is he is riding on an irish saddle whithout stirrups and using the spear overhand both of which were distinctly irish in the 16th century especially the saddle without stirups. You can see the similarities in Derricks prints which are contemporary with the time of the painting around 1578.

Look at the Irish cavalry on the right they have similiar saddles without stirrups they are wearing chainmail and they are using their spears overhand.

[frodo]

If you look at the irish soldiers on the right in the background, they are holding the spears exactly as the English are those in the foreground are only holding theirs overhand as they are fighting the oncoming soldiers behind them whilst fleeing, therefore rendering it impossible to "couch" the lance. I generally take Derricks prints with a pinch of salt anyway as they were drawn up from secondary accounts by and large, its an insignificant detail with relation to the topic, but I still think the overarm/underarm regional thing is more conjecture than a solid statement of "Irishness" in one form or another.

[kevin714]

If you look at the irish soldiers on the right in the background, they are holding the spears exactly as the English are those in the foreground are only holding theirs overhand as they are fighting the oncoming soldiers behind them whilst fleeing, therefore rendering it impossible to "couch" the lance. I generally take Derricks prints with a pinch of salt anyway as they were drawn up from secondary accounts by and large, its an insignificant detail with relation to the topic, but I still think the overarm/underarm regional thing is more conjecture than a solid statement of "Irishness" in one form or another.

I see your point, no pun intended:)
But it still does not explain away the "Irish saddles" without stirrups as being very much a regional thing in the 16th century. And don't you think it would be difficult to actually hit anyone with a couched lance without stirrups in a charge? I think you would fly off the back of the horse when you hit something solid, am I wrong? Unless they couched it and just let go when they hit someone. Is this how it was done? What was the english tactics for using the lance since they had stirrups? What is your opinion of what the irish tactic was without stirrups?

[frodo]

They mimicked the English tactics to a great extent as the Irish have always done with various invading cultures, albeit with a more guerrilla style approach. However just taking the print in question, you can see the height of the saddle itself these are more than sufficient to hold a rider in place whilst he uses a couched weapon. To take it away from the print, I have seen a replica of one of these saddles and got to speak to the person who made it (to be fair a guy from new mexico who was quite the "irish" nut). He used textual descriptions and depictions from the Derrick texts and looked at other saddles from the period to create his version of the 16th century stirupless "Irish" saddle. He also does quite a bit of trick riding and showed me how they used the couched lance. His movements were quite like that of a lateral sword thrust flexing his torso forward then back slightly for the body to act as a shock absorber. He then proceeded to impale a few bales of hay to prove a point.
Needless to say this is just my word on it as I neglected to bring my camera but I do hope thats helped clear up a few things, In short they compensated for lack of stirrups with a higher saddle and their movements were more dynamic than those with stirrups. However the basic approach and tactics were the same.
I also apologize that I have no textual sources to back up my point.

[frodo]

Quick note
Look again at the English front cavalry line. Third person up. Overarm spear/lance. Not Irish. It is a well established technique established since Charlemagnes Frankish Knights through the Norman period as displayed in my earlier sources and here again on both sides.